Then-Rep.-elect Jonathan Jackson, D-Ill., speaks during a news conference with Congressional Progressive Caucus members at AFL-CIO headquarters in Washington on Sunday, Nov. 13, 2022. (AP Photo/Amanda Andrade-Rhoades)

On Monday, WCPT’s Joan Esposito talked to Rep. Jonathan Jackson, who has represented the 1st Congressional District of Illinois since 2023, when he replaced retiring Congressman Bobby Rush.

On Nov. 5, Jackson won 63% of the vote in his bid for reelection and will now serve a second term as a member of the House Democratic minority, after Republicans narrowly held the House majority. Unlike the split-control 118th Congress, the 119th Congress will be run by Republicans in both the House and Senate, giving Republican President-elect Donald Trump a clear path to pass his agenda. In the interview, Jackson extended his congratulations to Trump but told WCPT that House Democrats “will be the loyal opposition” and not “concede one inch.”

Still, Jackson believes that Democrats will not have to do all the work to thwart GOP goals over the next four years, comparing the coming intrigue to Shakespeare’s “Macbeth.”

“You’re just going to see a huge surge of power and you’re going to see these people on Donald Trump’s team just cannibalize each other,” Jackson said. “It starts at the top. It’s not a spirit of harmoniously working together. It’s not very much goal oriented. And half the things he said he wants to do, he materialistically cannot do. How do you move 10, 12 million people out of the country [through mass deportations]? What impact will that have on the economy and on each individual state and crop season and other hotel and other service industries and even manufacturing?”

Jackson said that one of his priorities in the next Congress will be protecting the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP), which House Republicans targeted for a $30 billion cut in the omnibus farm bill that remains stalled in the Senate. Jackson, who serves on the Agriculture Committee that authored the bill, called the cuts mean-spirited and vowed to stand firm in opposition.

“Hunger is a huge issue,” Jackson told Esposito. “The 1st Congressional District has the highest level of diabetes in the nation, so that’s something that’s a real priority for me. So there are things that I want to do to make life better for people, and that’s what I’ll be focusing on.”

While Jackson indicated that he and other Democrats will be ready to work with Republicans to achieve what they can during the second Trump administration, he nonetheless expects to see people in the government “not doing things necessarily for the best of the country but things that are best for themselves.”

“And I think America is going to have a very low tolerance for that. And if [Trump] tries to go through with some of these big things that he said on the campaign trail that some people weren’t necessarily listening to, once he tries to implement them, I would encourage people to get ready for demonstrations and massive resistance, because we’re better than this.”

Below is a full transcript of the interview, edited for clarity.

Joan Esposito: The early reports out of the Trump administration are exactly what we feared they might be. And apparently, at least his focus on cutting Medicaid, food stamps and other safety net programs, appears that Republicans in Congress are more than happy to go along with this. Will the Democrats in Congress be able to slow them down or stop them? Well, that is a good question for Congressman Jonathan Jackson, who represents Illinois’ 1st District.

Jonathan, how are you doing?

Rep. Jonathan Jackson: I’m doing excellent. Great to hear your voice. Joan.

Joan Esposito: Good to talk to you. When we talked at the Democratic National Convention, I kind of thought that the next time we talked, it would be a different world. It would be a world with Kamala Harris as president and Democratic control of the House, at the very least. But that’s not the world that we seem to be living in. So what kinds of actions, discussions are Democrats having right now to figure out what they can do to stanch the worst of the stuff coming our way?

Rep. Jonathan Jackson: Well, it’s been a week and seems like it’s been eternity already.

Joan Esposito: Oh, my god, is it only a week? Oh, heaven help me.

Rep. Jonathan Jackson: (Laughs.) And then you think about what’s going on … and you think about introducing, welcoming your colleagues into the new Congress. Now you’re probably introducing people into the new Coliseum, that there’s very little margin on either side. So, for example, we’re going to probably end up with 213, 215, out of a total of 435, but currently the Trump administration has plucked three Republicans for his cabinet. So now, their numbers are down from 220 to 218, to 217, so the margin is not very much for them to play with.

The Democrats, under the leadership of Hakeem Jeffries, he did a marvelous job in a sea of red. Ninety percent of the front liners, those that were in the most vulnerable districts, won. So he did his part. As for the consultants and some of the other people, they need a new generation. Some of those just simply need to go because their math was all wrong. They weren’t listening to the American people. On that I say congratulations to President Trump. But also, we will be the loyal opposition, not to concede one inch, particularly on this SNAP program that’s under the Agriculture Committee that I’m on. That’s affecting roughly 47 million people, and it’s a mean spirit to cut $30 billion out that will harm women and children. So we’re going to stand ourselves firm.

And I tell you, I think of this almost in the play of “Macbeth.” You’re just going to see a huge surge of power and you’re going to see these people on Donald Trump’s team just cannibalize each other. It starts at the top. It’s not a spirit of harmoniously working together. It’s not very much goal oriented.

And half the things he said he wants to do, he materialistically cannot do. How do you move 10, 12 million people out of the country? What impact will that have on the economy and on each individual state and crop season and other hotel and other service industries and even manufacturing? When you say “America first,” are you telling other countries to look at themselves as second-class and go last? No, then you encourage other people to look at themselves first.

And, god bless them. And I pray, if you can believe it or not, even for his health and strength; I hope he doesn’t get done what he wants to do. But the man is 80 years old. We can’t wake up every day angry and fighting. At some point, you’ve got to say, “How does this all work and how can we make it better?” And he’s going to find there are many Democrats that are willing to work to make it better, but all this bravado and name-calling and misogyny and some of the people around him that have hatred, that will not work well for him.

Joan Esposito: I know that the new Congress is officially sworn in on Jan. 3. So if the people he’s tapped on the Republican side accept the positions that they’re being offered, does that mean that, as of Jan. 3, they’re gone? Do they have to resign from Congress to do these jobs?

Rep. Jonathan Jackson: Yes, they will have to resign from Congress. Yes, we get sworn in on Jan. 3 when the confirmations begin. And when that happens, each state has roughly 10 days to announce their special election[s]. So members of the Senate can be appointed by the governor, but only members of Congress can be elected by the people. That’s why they call it the People’s House. That’s why the speaker of the House is second in succession for the presidency, after the vice president. So those will be special elections, three of them so far.

Joan Esposito: And I have another question about the budget. There have been articles written that, rather than going for an omnibus budget — you know, one vote, get everything paid for the next foreseeable future — that Mike Johnson wants to split it up into as many as 12 different budget bills. And some are speculating that part of the reason he wants to do this is to give Donald Trump a hand. Like, Donald Trump said he wanted to get rid of the Department of Education. Well, if that’s a lengthy process and requires litigation and this and that, Mike Johnson could help him by simply not funding the Department of Education. Don’t pass that bill. Don’t even bring that bill up for a vote. Is that what you think is going to be happening in Congress?

Rep. Jonathan Jackson: Yes, I’ve heard over and over again — and this goes back to the Reagan era on David Stockman, the economists that were talking about starving the beast. So certain agencies that the Republicans don’t want, they simply say defund. And off the top of my head, it might have been 12 or so defund bills that I remember coming to the floor this year. And even like with Secretary [Alejandro] Mayorkas or [the Department of] Health and Human Services, when they get upset with someone, they put a bill on the floor to say, let’s remove the secretary of education’s budget, for his salary down to $1. So they play a lot of mean games like that.

Joan Esposito: So is that one way where the Department of Education could basically be dismantled, if there is literally no funding for the people who work there?

Rep. Jonathan Jackson: You’re making me shudder. I hope that’s not the case, but that is certainly what they have said. So you’re quoting them 100% [accurately]. I try to give people a level of comfort and not the high level of anxiety, but you’re reporting the news and you’re reporting it accurately, I must say, and that is very well laid out in his Project 2025 manifesto, created by the Heritage Foundation. And the other part is they want to move a lot of those funds to go into block grants, to go into vouchers that they can use at the state level for schools, to defund the public schools another way.

And I remember seeing a picture in Congress and Bobby Rush’s office. It was George Bush waving, heading toward the helicopter. And I asked Congressman Rush, so why do you have that picture? “So I can remember nobody lasts here forever.” So I’m going to get a picture of Mr. Trump waving.

So I look forward to working with him. I look forward to being the loyal opposition. I look forward to trying to make things better. Hunger is a huge issue. The 1st Congressional District has the highest level of diabetes in the nation, so that’s something that’s a real priority for me. So there are things that I want to do to make life better for people, and that’s what I’ll be focusing on.

Joan Esposito: Jonathan, Donald Trump recently has said that his first order of business, he claims, on the day he’s inaugurated [is] that he is going to declare a national emergency so that he can mobilize the military to start rounding up immigrants. Can he do that? Is that legal?

Rep. Jonathan Jackson: I’d like to get back to you on that, but I would say that the president is also the chief commanding officer, so the military serves at his pleasure. And I’m sure there’s some safety blocks that we can use in the United States Senate. But I would like to get back to you and answer that question specifically.

I’ve seen these sort of immigrant roundup things before, and one of the more hurtful things that I’ve ever experienced being a professor at Chicago State was one of the students had thought about committing suicide because he was here, his parents had brought him here and his paperwork was never right. And he was 19 years of age. He came here at three. So there’s some level of compassion that has to be granted children that are caught up in the middle of this that industry has profited from. So that’s a very hard issue for me.

Let us enforce the law, let us have some humane priorities, but I don’t want to start a reign of terror and having some people have the unintended consequence of suicide, because, as we’re talking about, it doesn’t affect us directly. See, if someone else is listening to this, I think we owe them some level of comfort to say we will fight this. So don’t take it to the extreme, please.

Joan Esposito: And aside from the children, I got a call last week from an Italian woman who said that she had been in this country for a very long time but that she had just never bothered to take the tests and become a citizen. And she actually called to talk about something else but explained that as part of the conversation. And I’m terrified for people like that, because there are immigrants in this country that may not have gone all the way through the process, but they’ve got jobs, they pay taxes. Because their status is up in the air, they don’t get any of the services that the rest of us are entitled to. I’m really worried about those folks.

Rep. Jonathan Jackson: I am worried, and at this stage I would say to let them know there will be a fight, give it some level of comfort. But even large industries, they can’t move 10, 12 million people out. You’re talking about collapsing real estate values; you’re talking about collapsing local economies. I think that conversation is more bravado. The president has a lot of influence. I think he’s going to test the limits to see what exactly is his power, or what he can do, and for those that would staunchly disagree with this and see the collateral damage and the human misery, I would hope there would be people of good conscience to say, no, we will deal with this in an orderly manner. I mean that we don’t worship a king in this country. So we will have some democratic processes to work through.

Joan Esposito: Yeah. Donald Trump has so far appointed a shocking number of wildly unqualified people, like Matt Gaetz and Tulsi Gabbard and Pete Hegseth. I know that the Senate has to decide if they’re going to recess and give him all of these appointments, carte blanche, or if there are going to be hearings. That’s kind of out of Congress’s hands, isn’t it?

Rep. Jonathan Jackson: Yes, there are some rules on the recess, but you also have, as Mr. Gaetz was trying to avoid a sex suit, the other gentleman [Hegseth] was trying to avoid a sex case. I see a dark day for women, and I am highly confident we’re going to get this back on track in the right direction.

And I think just like in “Macbeth,” you’re going to see just this power rush. You’re going to see people that are not doing things necessarily for the best of the country but things that are best for themselves. And I think America is going to have a very low tolerance for that. And if he tries to go through with some of these big things that he said on the campaign trail that some people weren’t necessarily listening to, once he tries to implement them, I would encourage people to get ready for demonstrations and massive resistance, because we’re better than this.

Joan Esposito: Yeah. How long do you think it’ll before Donald Trump gets tired of Elon Musk? I’m just curious. Should we start a pool, Jonathan?

Rep. Jonathan Jackson: Yeah, I thought it was a week ago — (laughs) — but we will see. After [Trump] won, what does he need you for? It reminds me of the Huey Long story when Huey Long, the governor of Louisiana, said there’ll be a chicken in every pot and I’ll give you work. And then, finally, a man had been trying to reach him, called him, mailed him, saw him and said, “Governor Long, I’ve been trying to reach you; you said I would have a job and a chicken in my pot.” And governor long looked at the man and said, “I lied.” (Laughs.)

Joan Esposito: Oh, okay! That actually speaks to a lot of the voters in in this election. I’ve seen reporters interview people who voted for Trump and I hear things like, well, I’m an immigrant, but he’s not going to deport me because I’m a “good” immigrant; he’s only going to deport people who’ve broken the rules. And I’m thinking to myself, did you ever listen to this guy you voted for? So many people seem to believe some kind of polished image of Donald Trump. “Oh, you know, he’s not going to do the things he says. He just says that for effect.” But wait a minute, in his first administration, he actually tried to do everything he said he was going to do. I don’t understand why people believe the PR around Trump and don’t see the reality. Do you have any insight into that?

Rep. Jonathan Jackson: He does the “otherism.” He makes everyone feel as if they’ve got someone else to hate, and before you know it — we’ve seen this play out in some parts of German history — they come from one group, then another group, then another group, and then pretty soon there was no one to stand for one another. So when you see this canary in the mine and see the toxicity in the air, when you judge their words — and all we have to do is go by their words, when you look at, like, a Stephen Miller that’s a part of [Trump’s] cabinet, that will be deputy chief of staff. I mean, he is a vile figure. So you’re going to see this hatred. I know that hatreds end up consuming itself, and this has put shockwaves in so many governments around the country. And no, he’s not going to be able to do half the things that he says, but in that manifesto, or Project 2025, he lays this out. It’s 922 pages. I’d be glad to go over some of the stuff in detail. You tell me which section that you want–

Joan Esposito: I’ve read a lot of it. It’s like a booklet of horrors. Government bureau by government bureau, here’s how we’re going to take it apart. Here’s how we’re going to replace all the loyal civil servants with people who are only loyal to Donald Trump. And then here’s how we’re going to twist it and what it does and its mission. Is there a part of [Project] 2025 that’s less than horrifying?

Rep. Jonathan Jackson: And the loyal government workers, the way he is badgering them, these are people that have chosen to go into the civil society, to do public works, and they administer, and they’re very good at what they do. He’s saying they will go away. And so those that understand the processes and the application of the law, he wants to get rid of them to have people that are ideologically bound. If you call into to the IRS or any of these agencies, they’re not necessarily going for your ethnicity or race or anything. They just want to do their job to make sure you filled out the box and that you are entitled to your refunds and that you pay what the government needs to sustain itself. He is now trying to tell people these, too, are enemies.

People in the press that ask questions, these are enemies. And he’s just fueling hate, which is what really disturbs me and really has many [feeling] angst at times. Watch in the next few weeks and you start hearing some of these quotes and some of these characters and they start doing background checks on who he has nominated, you’re going to say, “Oh my gosh, how does someone know these type of people?”

Joan Esposito: Yeah, let alone want to put them in positions of authority, though Donald Trump did say last week that apparently the idea that the FBI does a background check, it’s never actually been written into law; it’s just always been the practice. And I don’t know if they’ll let him get away with it, but Trump said, yeah, you know what, rather than the FBI doing background checks, I would rather hire a private company to do the background checks. And it got reported. It doesn’t seem to be one of the big issues that Republicans are wrestling with right now. I don’t know. Maybe he was just floating a balloon. Let’s hope so. But he knows these people aren’t going to survive background checks, for god’s sake.

Rep. Jonathan Jackson: Right. And the FBI, they do a great job, they would know, and they would have the interest of the American people first. It’s a dark age, and I think when you see this rollout of what’s happening with women’s reproductive issues — and it was never about abortion. The same people that don’t want women to have autonomy over their body to make decisions are the same ones that say poor women have too many children. We’ve already been through this. There are some people that actually believed in eugenics, that think there are better species and couples and races that marry together and others are not as pure blood, that they are “poisoning the blood of our country.” Listen to the words he’s saying. We’ve already heard these words before in history and they’re very eerie, and they start with some very wealthy people. This level of indecency and eugenics – that didn’t start with poor, unemployed people; that started with the mathematicians and the scientists that went on to implement these racial laws.

Joan Esposito: Jonathan, thank you so much for being here today. Love talking with you. Take care of yourself, okay?

Rep. Jonathan Jackson: Okay, Joan. I’ll be back.